Health season 3

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What should the health be for season 3

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Health season 3

Post by mkj13 on July 20th 2012, 5:02 am

Since all health spawns have been reduced from 6 pills 3 shots
to 3 pills 1 shot i was thinking lets play the game without taking health away

What do you think?

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Re: Health season 3

Post by Machiavellus on July 20th 2012, 6:07 am

The health won't even be properly spread out across the map in all instances. Teams low on health late map won't have an easy time finding health, but teams that take a big hit early, will have an actual chance of surviving later tanks if they keep moving and don't take a lot of big hits along the way.

I'd like to see people have a bit of faith in Prodigy.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by for_twin_te4 on July 20th 2012, 6:50 am

I think it should be starter pills only, its been the rules in the 4v4s and f/o's well most of them I been in. dont think extra heath or shots should be aloud. could end up being soul reason for extra points pushed, if one team makes it and the other doesnt, that means, the losing infected have now had their chances made even worse cause the survivors have stumbled upon late heath, that the other surviors were only a few steps away from.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by Machiavellus on July 20th 2012, 7:24 am

for_twin_te4 wrote:I think it should be starter pills only, its been the rules in the 4v4s and f/o's well most of them I been in. dont think extra heath or shots should be aloud. could end up being soul reason for extra points pushed, if one team makes it and the other doesnt, that means, the losing infected have now had their chances made even worse cause the survivors have stumbled upon late heath, that the other surviors were only a few steps away from.

And starter pills only is the sole reason most games end almost the exact same way regardless of who wins. Teams die to the same things over and over. Survivors are even more likely to race on your tank if they know they only have 4 sets of pills and already have bleedouts by the tank. Starter Pills only is boring. This isn't GB season whatever with FYOK and blahblahblah. We have -confogl- You only have tier-1's and 1 HR. And almost no throwables. We don't have HB, but that doesn't even matter because teams are still barely making saferooms.

Not to mention the fact that "scavenging" is part of the game. It's bad enough that to balance the game we have to take out medkits and half the weapons, taking out the ability to pick up any more health at all is just silly. With all these features of confogl we get closer to the balance PC achieves, but with no additional health for survivors, infected's job is made easy. 3 secures aren't necessary to kill xbox teams. Good chip spread out across a map + a half-way decent tank wipes nearly every team by 75% of the way through the map. One good charge spit early, and there goes all 4 of your pills by the time you get to the late tank spawn. That's not balance.

Just because a set of rules has been used in 4v4's doesn't mean we should keep using it if it's -wrong-. If that -WERE- that case. Then slavery would still be around. And women wouldn't be allowed to vote.

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Re: Health season 3

Post by dave14810 on July 20th 2012, 8:17 am

I agree with everything Mach said. Who decided that starters only was the only way to play? Firstly what are people afraid of exactly about taking more health? I would understand if teams were making every saferoom and rounds were been decided by 25 pt bonuses like on reg versus but they are not, even on the easiest map in the game we decided that you shouldn't even have any starter pills.

Bad teams are still going to get killed by tanks with the extra health but the better team will be rewarded for killing the tank and getting more points and better reflect the actual difference in how much better they played in a round. Maps where tank spawns happen during crescendos might actually be beatable or at least the better team will get more points, imagine a scenario where people actually try and fight the Parish 2 crescendo tank instead of been happy just touching the door. Also its not like all the extra health are going to spawn in places that are of benefit anyway. Some will spawn at the start of maps where you have fullish health and wont bother picking them up.

I think we should just try the all health option, what is the harm in trying? The worst case scenario is that teams start making every map for the first few matches and then you can adjust the health downwards. I think it would actually make things more interesting, there would be more chances to pull back points in levels rather than just the finale. The lead might go back and forth a bit instead of a team getting a lead of 150 on parish 1, then both teams touch the door on map 2 and die, both teams make it to the ladder map 3 and die, both teams make it to the crescendo on 4 and......die and the winner is who hits the most instant kills on the finale first hole.

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Re: Health season 3

Post by for_twin_te4 on July 20th 2012, 10:28 am

I think it will help the winning team take a bigger lead, what if one team does not need the pills when it comes, but the other team was in need. or lets say a team runs through pretty untouched, then the losing team finally getts that good hit towards the end, but pills are found and all is lost. 4 pills is enough temp health in my opinion. If you wanna try to get rid of the luck on this game, like you say is in parish finale, then lets not base our games on the luck of where the pills are gonna spawn for us. be quick at clearing and cover spawns, your health wont get depleted. and though you say things should be different from the normal type 4v4 rules. why are we gonna try to make games easier in the league, suppose to be competitive and hard. then maybe again this should just be a decision made before the game. if one team gonna do it, then the other team does it, being that it seems so favored.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by Foxtwins2 on July 20th 2012, 3:06 pm

I'd be in for all pills IF we had health bonus but we don't. Not only that, but before we had this new confogl the most people took was 5 pills 1 shot.. Now we have a HR and we want to take more? I don't think that's necessary, people still managed to make saferooms with 4 pills and no HR.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by xShAmE oN YoUx on July 20th 2012, 3:48 pm

I'm with mach and dave
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Re: Health season 3

Post by dave14810 on July 20th 2012, 7:54 pm

@for twin te4 : Exactly, the team that played better in a round will take a bigger lead but that's the fault of the team who probably got killed by the tank but the exact same thing could happen to the other team the next round and the lead could swing back and forth a bit instead of waiting to clutch the finale all the time. In a competitive environment you should be punished for making bad mistakes. The idea that we make this game more competitive by restricting health is flawed. On too many levels both teams score basically the exact same too often, that isn't a reflection of who played better in a round. Alot of people are content on getting to certain point totals because they know even if the other team plays better than them they probably will get basically the same score, that to me is not competition.

@Foxtwins2: What percentage of saferooms does your team make on a regular basis? I don't want to presumptuous but is it far less than the % of levels that you get the exact same as the other team when either you or the other team played better? Even with the extra health in the previous season teams weren't making that many more saferooms than they were before.

A good tank and good support will kill a team regardless of how much health they have. As I said there is no harm in trying all health, if you find that teams are making it to every saferoom then adjust the amount of health, but is that really any different to teams making it to exactly the same point in a level and dying?

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Re: Health season 3

Post by Foxtwins2 on July 20th 2012, 9:39 pm

@Dave I'd say most the time atleast 1 safe room per game depending on the map idk? But here is why I don't want extra health. For one, the fact people could make safe room with just starter pills and no HR shows we don't need more health. With extra health there will be many problems, let me give you an example. The first team on dark carni 1 is doing great as survivors and end up only having to use 2 pills with 2 to spare. (not including extra health) Now here comes the 2nd team getting beat quite badly, however with the 4 starting pills plus the other 3 pills they manage to tie the 1st team. If we had health bonus obviously the first team would be doing great butttt we don't so for that level their tied. I see your point and it's true that does happen where two teams tie even though the first team may have done better. But with extra health this probelm will be worse but in a different way.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by for_twin_te4 on July 20th 2012, 10:15 pm

the fact that both teams, do close to the same is what makes the games good. lets not let teams get carried by pills. come on now, I'm not even close to best at this game. I dont think good players should need extra health. if you on the ball with your survivors you will not get hurt and not need extra health. You should have to work for it. cause basically it can be a handicap. meaning one team at some point will have played the game with more health then the other team. and wether or not they killed the tank is not the issue. Why are we trying to throw extra health into the mix.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by Machiavellus on July 20th 2012, 11:26 pm

Having most teams do almost the exact same thing is not good at all. It does not make us good. It makes the game predictable. It would make us good if our survivors made every saferoom. Because everyone who really -knows- this game -knows- survivors should make every saferoom. They have every tool in their power already to make every saferoom and shutdown every attack. And we're still not making saferooms.

If team A makes 1/5 saferooms. And so does team B. But they're both dying around the same places, that is just plain bad game design.

The way the game is -supposed- to work out, is teams should make most maps, unless stopped by a good tank, or some really top notch SI attacks + a mediocre tank.

As it is, with only 4 sets of pills. HB would be MORE IMPORTANT than it would be if we added pills. THIS IS WHY PRODIGY DESIGNED IT THIS WAY.

As it is, if team A makes a saferoom that team B dies outside of, Team A gets measly 125~

Team A barely uses any health. Team B uses all of their health.

We all know the health as it is, is just enough to carry you to almost the end as long as there are late tanks. 4 pills will get you there, but not any further, if you take big hits.

This means that even the lower tier teams are still making it nearly to the end of every map unless the top tier team's SI is spot on. Whereas the lower tier team can reliably just pick people up and bum rush to their death every time.

Adding more health gives the better team more opportunities to make mistakes, and still dominate, and gives the not so good teams, opportunities to actually make maps if the better team can't keep on top of the SI play.

Starter Pills Only is COUNTER PRODUCTIVE to the community AT THIS TIME.

If someone can prove to me that every person on here posting Starter Pills Only, can make every map reliably with extra health, then I see your arguments as nothing more than fear of change, and a fear of having to try harder with your SI to wipe people.

This is coming from someone who actually played Season 1 GB. Who saw medkits and auto shotties. And saw teams still get killed.

Teams are not supposed to die as often as they are. Yes without HB we need kills. But you people will still get killed with extra health, we'll just see the point of death change up a bit, and see people make more maps.

And the main change we will see that people are afraid of, is good teams will become that much harder to kill. WHICH IS THE WAY THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE OKAY. You're not supposed to get hit by one charge spit and feel like you're screwed because this map is too long for L4DSteve to be nomnomnoming all your pills when you have a late tank.

Why do people even argue with me? ;_;

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Re: Health season 3

Post by mkj13 on July 20th 2012, 11:32 pm

I agree with mach have faith in prodigysim we used to play find your own health on reg versus with like 7 to 10 health items per map. And confogl comes out and everyone want to play starters only. ( i never did understand that) And now prodigysim lowers health spawns to what I asked him to do with only up to 4 extra health items! Come on guys/gals lets give it a try

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Re: Health season 3

Post by Foxtwins2 on July 21st 2012, 12:12 am

My main point was that with all this extra health people are going to be carried and be able to make safe room, and because we have no health bonus the good teams who did way better will get screwed over. But I guess we'l see how everything works out I suspose. Hey, this is just a thought (not saying it's a good idea) but what if we kinda made our own health bonus? Like for every extra pill each survivor carries the team gets 50 points? Idk just a thought :3
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Re: Health season 3

Post by xXEstrangedSoulXx on July 21st 2012, 12:43 am

Are the spawns for the pills and adrenaline the same for both teams or would both teams have to explore? I haven't been keeping track of health recently and saferoom pills has been fine. That being said, I'd try the other way too. Only way to really know all the variables of the situations is trail and error.

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Re: Health season 3

Post by for_twin_te4 on July 21st 2012, 12:47 am

Maybe the games just need to have custom rules that both teams agree on. looks like alot of the votes are really 2 sided. It would take a trust system on the part of both teams. but maybe both teams could at least meet in the middle on rules on what they feel is fair., i.e. molly rule, bridge rule, health rule, and tank.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by xShAmE oN YoUx on July 21st 2012, 3:26 am

yea i have an issue trusting people after all the shit that's happened to me on this game. normally i wouldn't care about getting screwed over and would just move on to the next game.

we should all just agree to not play parish, keep the molly, and use all health for this season lol (kidding about the parish). come on people there are no kits and tier 2's.... not even fyok

don't knock it till you try it
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Re: Health season 3

Post by SicKxLiquiD on July 21st 2012, 3:46 am

The way I see this is that we buffed the survivors by giving them the hunting rifle. Now we want to buff them further by giving them more health. Confogl exists to make it harder for the survivors, but now we are just making it easier. Sure we have only tir1 weapons, but we got good with them. A tir1 in our hands is better than a tir2 in most pubs hands. Honestly don't see a reason for extra health and I agree with everything foxtwins is saying. Especially the point of if we had a health bonus. L4D2 plays by shitty distance. If both teams make it, we battle for 25 points. In L4D1 the point is to make saferoom cause you don't get the good points if you don't make it. In L4D2 the point is to make it as far as you can. If that is 75% then its ok.

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Re: Health season 3

Post by mkj13 on July 21st 2012, 4:58 am

hb would make life good

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Re: Health season 3

Post by Machiavellus on July 21st 2012, 7:43 am

SM. I know you're a pretty smart guy but you haven't met Prodigy personally right? Not that -that- even fucking matters. But people besides me here have too. And Prodigy did not invent confogl to make the game -harder- for survivors. Confogl was created to make the game more balanced for both teams. So that it wasn't one sided for survivors -or- infected.

Last season the infected were OP. And from what I've seen in 4v4's so far. SI are still OP. One HR in the hands of an xbox controller are not defending your health that much. You're not killing tanks that much better. Not yet anyway.

I'm not trying to buff the survivors and make the game easier for them. And that's not what Prodigy did by LOWERING THE AMOUNT OF HEALTH IN THE MUTATION FOR US. He tried to give us an amount of health that provided for a more balanced gameplay experience for both sides.

If you're not going to have faith in Prodigy will you bums at least have faith in Machiavellus who has been around as long as any of you? No I haven't always been on top teams. But I've always played against them. I've seen both sides of the community on xbox from start to finish and you kids can't have a little faith that I know wtf I'm talking about?

Give the health a try for season 3. Record your games and we'll see how it works and go from there for finals. You're all still ignoring the simple facts about people limping to the same place and dying all the time. The better players have known this for a long time. That's not competitive and it's not what prodigy wanted when he created the confogl mutation. For xbox, he wanted us to have a way to experience the most balanced competitive way to play L4D possible through a mutation. He wanted us to be able to play competitively without having weird made-up rules. Because on PC they don't need weird made-up rules. They just use mods.

So we get this elite mutation, that PC kids really don't give two shits about. And we want to add rules to it. Seriously people? You want confogl. So play confogl. Like ProdigySim made it. And enjoy it. Because it's miraculous that it even happened. And stop trying to slap crazy rules regarding health because we DONT NEED THEM. Our mutation ADDRESSES that. And let's focus on rules that fix things that the mutation can't stop.

IE Charger glitch. Negate fall damage glitch. Parish 5 doodoomap. Prelights.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by Machiavellus on July 21st 2012, 7:47 am

Furthermore, if we both battle to 75% and die both time SM. then we're actually having games that are closer than the shitty 25 point games we'll be having if we make every map. People should have more POSSIBILITIES of shutting down tanks. The more people are given the OPPORTUNITY to make maps. The more OPPORTUNITIES we get for leads by wiping with tanks. Which is still possible no matter how many pills you have with proper team work, and we're not adding that many more pills.

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Re: Health season 3

Post by Mayor Haggar on July 21st 2012, 12:52 pm

I have to agree with SM, the extra health is uneccessary. Survivors have already recieved a huge buff with the hr. Adding another buff is just too much. Taking all of the health will give a huge advantage to the second team, they will know where to find everything. This will allow Teams that havent been playing well an unfair opprotunity to catch up. That or allow them to just limp to and die at the same crecendo tank.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by Foxtwins2 on July 21st 2012, 6:13 pm

Fact is we don't need extra health. Starter pills is fine and with a HR now, more pills is highly unnecessary. If we had health bonus I wouldn't care about taking extra health however we don't. People grabbing extra health is just going to carry teams whom are not as good closer to the better team's score. Mach you're afraid of people dieing near the same locations well your solution isn't going to solve that, it's just going to make a whole new problem.
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Re: Health season 3

Post by xShAmE oN YoUx on July 21st 2012, 6:18 pm

the extra pills is not gonna tip the scale in favor of survivors. it's temporary health folks not kits.

it's funny how so many people will say that confogol is supposed to make it harder on survivors when Prodigy actually states he wants to make l4d2 more balanced. maybe people should actually read his posts instead of jumping to conclusions.

he did make confogol and wants gameplay to be fair sooo how about a little faith and patience.

how is a competitive game balanced if it makes it harder for one side to compete? nuff said

P.S. yea i forgot this but the better team should have better infected. so they shouldn't worry about the extra health and should have an easier time killing the other team and making it further. myehhhhhhhh
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Re: Health season 3

Post by Foxtwins7 on July 21st 2012, 6:27 pm

@shame on you. Lmao dude the extra pills will definitely "tip the scale in favor of survivors". Now that there is an HR, people will begin to make it further then they did before without one. Now were also getting 3 extra pills and 2 shots? Thats doubling the health and ur getting a weapon that carries. You can't seriously think that, that doesn't "tip the scale in favor of survivors".
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Re: Health season 3

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